Welcome back to Alchemy for Authors!
In this week’s episode I interview award-winning podcaster, creative entrepreneur, and bestselling author, Joanna Penn, about her wonderful new book, Writing the Shadow: Turn Your Inner Darkness into Words. Joanna gives advice on how to recognize your Shadow Self and how we can use it to not only become better writers, but also better people. We discuss why AI is no competition for you showing up and being vulnerable on the page, what it’s like to be an intuitive discovery writer, and why there’s nothing wrong with binge writing. We also discuss the role of synchronicity in writing a book, and why planning your author career is often about lifestyle design.
If you’re ready to delve into the dark, confront your shadows, and are willing to use your vulnerability to really connect with your readers, then it’s time to let your dark horse run. Grab a drink, find a comfy chair, sit back and enjoy the show!
Visit Joanna’s Creative Penn website here: https://www.thecreativepenn.com/
Listen to The Creative Penn podcast here or on your favourite podcast app.
Visit Joanna’s J. F. Penn website here: https://jfpenn.com/
Grab your copy of Writing the Shadow: Turn Your Inner Darkness into Words here: https://creativepennbooks.com/
Support Joanna’s Spear of Destiny Kickstarter here: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/thecreativepenn/spear-of-destiny-an-action-adventure-thriller-novel
Follow Joanna on Facebook at: https://www.facebook.com/TheCreativePenn
Follow Joanna on Instagram at: https://www.instagram.com/jfpennauthor/
Other resources mentioned in this episode:
Tim Ferris – The 4 Hour Workweek
Becca Symes – Dear Writer, Are You Intuitive?
Listen to Episode 20: Intuition and Success for Authors with Becca Syme here.
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Find the full transcript of this episode below.
Episode 78: Writing the Shadow with Joanna Penn
Jo: Hello, my lovelies, welcome to Episode 78 of Alchemy for Authors: Writing the Shadow with Joanna Penn. First off, I want to apologize for the slight delay in getting this show to you. I had lots of unexpected going-ons in my personal life last week and this week, and despite my best intentions, it just wasn’t possible. Life happens. But here it is now, and I think you’re going to agree, or I hope you’re going to agree anyway, that it has been well worth the extra few days or so wait.
Today’s episode is a super special one for me. If you have been following me for a while, you will know that despite having been born wanting to be an author, it did take me a long time to actually take action and make it a reality. You might have also heard me talk about a couple of the motivating factors that really set my dream of being an author into motion.
Number one was being in an absolutely toxic day job. And I think a few of you might understand how really sometimes our darkest days can often be the kick in the pants we need to change our life and make things happen. But number two was saturating myself in the know-how and motivating optimism of other authors and leaders in the writing and publishing industry. And I did that via listening to lots of podcasts and reading lots of books.
But there has always been one particular author who really stood out for me, both then and whom I still now highly admire, follow, trust and learn from, and that is Joanna Penn. You can imagine then how absolutely giddy with excitement I was fan-girling to the nth degree when Joanna said yes to actually being on this show.
When I first started Alchemy for Authors, I knew that I wanted Joanna on the show. Her podcast and her books, and her passion and optimism towards writing and publishing, showed me what was possible and really helped set me on my path, both writing and podcasting. But in all honesty, I had a lot of imposter syndrome in even reaching out to her. And when I finally did last year, there was quite a few postponements of the interview due to various things out of our control on both our ends. And so it was seriously exciting when we finally connected again this year.
For those of you who maybe don’t know who Joanna Penn is, let me introduce you. In short, Joanna writes nonfiction for authors and is an award nominated New York Times and USA Today best -selling thriller author as J. F. Penn. She’s also an award-winning podcaster, creative entrepreneur, and international professional speaker, and a thought leader for indie authors.
In today’s episode, we chat about her wonderful new book, Writing the Shadow: Turn Your Inner Darkness into Words. Joanna gives advice on how to recognize your Shadow Self and how we can use it to not only become better writers, but also better people. We also discuss why AI is no competition for you showing up and being vulnerable on the page. What it’s like to be an intuitive discovery writer. And why there’s nothing wrong with binge writing. We also discuss the role of synchronicity in writing a book, and why planning your author career is often about lifestyle design.
And as you’ll learn throughout this episode, my stance on Joanna’s book, Writing the Shadow, is that when you put it to use, it can be life changing. Not only for your writing craft, but also for you personally. If, like me, you’re not afraid of the dark, you’re open to personal development, and are willing to use your vulnerability to really connect with your readers, then I think you’re really going to enjoy this episode. So, when you’re ready, grab a drink, find a comfy chair, sit back and enjoy the show.
Hello, Joanna. I am so excited to have you on the show. This has been kind of a dream of mine actually for a really long time to be able to chat with you like this. So welcome so much to the show.
Joanna: Oh, well, thanks for having me, Jo and yeah, it’s great to be here and great to be speaking to New Zealand. As you know, I lived there for several years, so like six years, so I have many fond memories of New Zealand.
Jo: Yeah, that is so cool. I think we first started talking about you coming on the show actually, when you were traveling to New Zealand last year around the Auckland Writers Festival. So yeah, that’s kind of cool.
Joanna: Yeah, I was, um, we still have family there, so I still come back. But yeah, I haven’t worked there in a while.
Jo: Well, just in case people have been like living under a rock or something and don’t know who you are, could we just start with you talking a little bit about who you are and a little bit about the background to your author journey and where you’re at today.
Joanna: Yeah, sure. So I guess like many people, I was, you know, doing a corporate job and I was pretty miserable in my job. I was an IT contractor. I used to implement accounts payable into corporates there in New Zealand and here in Europe and in Australia as well. And I got to the sort of point, I was just not happy in my job. And it was around the time when Tim Ferriss’ Four Hour Work Week came out and I started to sort of examine what I wanted to do with my life. And like, what do I want to do? And I looked at what I enjoyed doing most, and that was reading and traveling and also writing, as in I write journals, I was writing journals at the time. But just such a big reader, you know, like many of us, it’s like, Oh, if I could be an author, that would be amazing. I didn’t really believe it was possible. But I started actually, it’s funny I was thinking, I actually started the writing in New Zealand. I did a course, I think it was Massey, Massey University, like a creative writing module, and, uh, I think I even applied to Victoria University to do like an MFA, like back in, gosh, yeah, and it’s funny, I didn’t even remember that I’d done that until I was thinking about your question. And then, that didn’t happen. I moved to Australia, met my now husband and started really writing there in Australia.
And in 2006, I started writing properly for publication. 2007 was when I actually self-published for the first time back in the same year that the iPhone and the Kindle were launched. So it was very fortuitous that I started my journey at the time when digital publishing was starting to become a thing. And I learned a lot along the way. I started my website, https://www.thecreativepenn.com/ Penn with a double N in 2008. I you know, started internationally self-publishing at that point when we could do that through Smashwords, get on the Kindle, that kind of thing. And in 2009, I started writing my first novel, and 2011 I left my job to become a full time author entrepreneur. So just to sort of show people how long it takes, you know, it did take sort of five years of still having the day job writing early in the morning, working on my author platform, building an audience. And then since 2011, I’ve been full time. I’m back in the UK now. I have sort of 45ish books. I say “ish” because there are multiple editions of some of the books. I write nonfiction for authors as Joanna Penn and I write thrillers, dark fantasy, horror, short stories, memoir as J. F. Penn. So I have those two different brands. Obviously I have The Creative Penn podcast. I do some speaking. So I live a sort of eclectic creative life, I guess. And my books are at the heart. But yeah, I wanted to encourage people, it might take a bit of time to get going, but the creative life can be, it doesn’t have to be full time, but if you want it to be, it can be very rewarding.
Jo: Oh, my gosh. You have been such an inspiration for me because I’ve been listening to The Creative Penn podcast for, I don’t even know how many years. But I do remember 2018 having a really rough time of it at my day job at the time, and hearing you talk about how you went from being in this job that you really didn’t enjoy, and then taking that courageous step to start to write and regain, you know, your creativity and find that again and grow that. And I remember reading your book about career change and listening to your podcast all the time. And it was really the inspiration that got me off my butt of just thinking about writing books to doing it.
Joanna: I’m thrilled and I mean this, but this is a good point. I mean, you do talk about manifestation and mindset and things on this show, but you’ve also taken action and I think, you know, I also agree in this, in fact, you know, you’ve read Career Change, in there I do talk about, I had an affirmation, which was, “I am creative. I am an author.” And when I wrote that affirmation, you know, back in like 2006, I didn’t believe it. I couldn’t even say it out loud. I wrote it as an affirmation, but it wasn’t real, and I kind of whispered it to myself when I walked to my day job. And then I was like, “I am creative. I am an author.” And okay. So what does that mean? Then you have to take action. So it’s like, okay, what does a creative person, what does an author do? And so then you have to start acting that way. And, you know, I’ve had a look at some of your gothic suspense and your paranormal cozy, and you’ve got this podcast, and that’s the thing. You have to take that step into action. Part of the law of attraction is the action, as you know.
But I feel like, you know, and with writing particularly, it’s one of these things that you get better with every story you write, every book you write. You become a better podcaster with every interview you do. And these things take time. And I feel like there’s this myth in the publishing industry that you write that first book, you get a publishing deal, it makes a million, you can retire to your beach house and you’re done, you know? And that’s just, that’s not the reality. And I don’t think we want that to be the reality because once you’ve written one book, you want to write another book. I mean, you’ve obviously got the bug now. You’ve got quite a few.
Jo: Oh, yeah. Well, and the cool thing was, and I’m giving you so much credit here, but it was through listening to your podcast and that, that right away when I started writing, and I did that whole calling myself an author before I was a published author and before I felt I was one. Yeah, I did that.
Joanna: Just on that. So people, why we do that is if you say “I am an author”, it creates this cognitive dissonance where you’re like, but I’m not, but now I have to be because I’m saying I am, so now I should be. So I need to finish my book and I need to get it out there. And obviously you’re not going out in public saying “I’m an author” when you don’t have a book, but it becomes the affirmation you write down.
Jo: Yeah. It was through your podcast and everything that I learned to do it slow as well, or kind of gave myself permission to do it slow. So even though I was like at the time, um, I was in a kind of horrible job and that was kind of the kickstart to get off my butt and actually, you know, follow my dreams a bit. But because you’d always talked about playing the long game and starting how you wanted to continue a little bit and all of that. So I’ve never had those grandiose ideas of being a millionaire right off my first book. I’ve always known that this is something that will take time so enjoy the journey kind of thing. And yeah, I’ve got to give you that credit too.
Joanna: Oh no, I’m really pleased because I think this is so important and actually we become better writers as we write each book, as I said. And also I think it becomes more of a lifestyle. And it’s funny thinking back to that Tim Ferriss book, that’s what he called it: it was lifestyle design. And when you think about what part of the fun of being an author is, I write fiction and nonfiction, but it’s making stuff up when you’re writing fiction, and research. I love research, and I’m in kind of research first draft at the moment with a novel. But it’s also, you know, like Writing the Shadow, which we might come on to talk about, it’s figuring out what you think about something, and then part of the pleasure is turning all of those ideas and random thoughts into a finished product. And once you’ve done it once, you’re like, Oh, that’s great, and you want to do it again. And so it becomes a lifestyle that you didn’t necessarily expect. But if you’re in a rush, you’re not really enjoying that journey as, as you said. So I’m really glad that that encouraged you. And now you’re passing that on.
And that’s another really important thing is sharing what you learn with other people. And when I was in New Zealand, so I left New Zealand in like 2006, so, uh, or maybe it was before 2005, 2006, um, when I left and there wasn’t really the openness to things like self-publishing back then, or in Australia, uh, that really came out of America. But now I think it’s a completely different environment for writers.
Jo: Yeah. Yeah. I think it really is. And there is so much potential out there and, and I just love that. And yeah, it’s such an adventure. That’s how I kind of see it. It’s such an adventure and it’s changing all the time, but that’s okay.
Joanna: Life is an adventure.
Jo: Yeah, yeah, exactly. So because I’ve been following you for quite a while, and you have spoken about, and this is what I’m just so excited to chat to you about, but you’ve been speaking about this book that you’ve always wanted to write about the Shadow Self and all of that. Which really appeals to me because, you know, I like a little bit of the dark, I write gothic suspense, and I was really intrigued by that concept of the Shadow Self. And then I was so excited last year when it was a real thing, you wrote your book and it was on Kickstarter in October, 2023. And yay. So…
Joanna: It finally happened.
Jo: Like, honestly, I’ve been waiting a long time for this book! And it is, yeah, it was everything and more that I had imagined. Like, honestly, I know I said this before we started recording, but you totally outdid yourself with this in regards to your nonfiction books. Like it is so juicy. So juicy.
Joanna: Oh, thank you. Well, I guess for people that are listening, the book is Writing the Shadow: Turn Your Inner Darkness Into Words. And I guess, yeah, I studied Jungian psychology, sort of way back when I was aged 18. We call them A levels here in the UK. And then I studied psychology of religion as part of a theology degree. And so I’ve been thinking about the idea of the shadow that Carl Jung originally talked about for like 30 plus years. And then when I became a writer, I always had this idea that I wanted to write a book about it. But these big, let’s call it a big book, a big concept book. The Shadow is different for every single person. It’s different in every culture. It’s different in religion. It’s different in family. There are so many aspects… money. I mean, you know, this book could have been 25 books. I mean, it really, it’s so big. And I had a lot of research.
I started it multiple times. So I had a lot of Scrivener projects. I write in Scrivener. I started it. I might’ve written a few thousand words, you know, even 20,000 words. And I was like, no, not ready. And this is another interesting thing about being a writer. And I think I’m an intuitive, discovery writer, so I do rely on how I feel, like how maybe some people might call it the muse. But essentially, I was just not ready to write that book from a craft point of view, because to write a big book, you have to have some, writing chops, I guess.
And by the time I wrote this, I’ve written over, you know, many millions of words. And that takes a while to get to, as we were saying. So it wasn’t really until I thought I could do justice to the topic. But the other thing that happened, the book before Writing the Shadow, as you know, was a book called Pilgrimage: Lessons Learned from Solo Walking Three Ancient Ways. And obviously that was during the pandemic. Which we just can’t remember the pandemic now, right? I mean, that’s just, that’s all gone. But during the pandemic, I also went through the kind of perimenopause time, sort of depression, and some darker times. And I wrote this first memoir. I’d never written a memoir before. And when I wrote that book, something unlocked around sharing the deeper side of myself that, as you know, I’m on my podcast, I’m very upbeat. I mean, I guess you are as well on this show with manifestation and mindset and positivity. And I am that person, but equally, I hadn’t really shared that other side. I shared my fiction, which is darker, but this was memoir, which is really difficult. And so by writing Pilgrimage and the positive reaction I got with that, I also realized that the fear of judgment that I had around writing The Shadow, like really it was, okay, I’m going to have to write some of my personal stuff into this book. Nonfiction cannot just be facts and tips, it has to be personal. And then I was like, okay, I think I’m ready. So it took over 30 plus years to write. But finally, getting that book out makes a big difference. So again, this is encouragement for people listening. Many of us have these kind of bigger books that we would like to write. I’d also like to write something big like The Stand by Stephen King.
Jo: Yeah.
Joanna: Sort of big, you know, epic dark fantasy. It really is epic. It’s huge. I mean, it’s like over a thousand pages or something. But something like that, I know that I need a decent time to write, and I need it to be a big book. So yeah, I think if you have these books that you think, okay, that, and it also means a lot to me, then that doesn’t have to be your first book. It doesn’t need to be your second or third or whatever. There can be a point where you feel ready to write it, or maybe you feel ready and you start and then it’s like, actually I’m not ready. Well, you can park it now. I hesitate to say this because I also think you should finish and you should publish what you write. So don’t keep working on it over and over.
So with Writing the Shadow, I tried several times, I stopped and then I wrote something else and published that. So don’t let this project stop you. But equally, some of these bigger things you might have to rest. I don’t know. What do you think, Jo? Have you got any of the books like this that you think I’m just not ready yet?
Jo: Yeah. Yeah. All the time. Like, and I find that where sometimes I’ll have like a deadline for my editor or something. So I usually book my editor well in advance and I’m like, right, I’ve got this book that I really want to write. And then I’ve got to like push back the editing deadline or something because it’s just not time. Cause I’m a little bit like you and I’m a discovery writer, but I’m also, um, I’m a, I don’t know, I just know when the time’s right. And when the time’s right I’m just writing all the time, but then I’ll go months without writing.
Joanna: Oh, yeah. You are just like me then.
Jo: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think so because I’ve heard you talk about that too. And for a long time, I kind of beat myself up about that because I wasn’t writing all the time. But I do believe that books are written and they come into realness, like when it’s their time and not before. Because yeah, I’ve tried to force things before and it just doesn’t work. Like it just doesn’t.
Joanna: It’s not so fun. I mean, that’s the thing. And I agree with you and I call it binge writing. So rather than writing every day, it’s binge writing, which is okay. This book, I’m ready to go on this book now. And now I’m going to write it and I’m in that phase right now for my next novel Spear of Destiny. But equally like you, I did Writing the Shadow, I guess I finished it over six, as we’re talking, I finished it over six months ago and then it went through editing or whatever, but I wrote one short story in that time and that was it in between these two projects. So I think about it as projects, you could, that might be better than binge writing, I don’t know. But you know, project work as opposed to every single day.
Jo: Yeah
Joanna: I guess the other thing is, uh, just talking about being intuitive because there’s a really good book. It’s called Dear Writer, Are You Intuitive? by Becca Syme.
Jo: Yeah, so good. Becca is just amazing.
Joanna: And that book really helped me because I was like, oh my goodness, that is exactly what I’m like. And being a discovery writer, as you said, it’s also feeling your way. And if people don’t know, it means we don’t heavily plot. Like I don’t know enough about my characters before I start. I just start writing and then they kind of emerge.
Jo: You know what? I love that. That is part of the adventure of it because I find that I’m writing the book and then partway through and going, Oh my gosh, I never saw that coming.
Joanna: Yeah, exactly.
Jo: Who knew? And if I say that out loud and my husband’s like, well, you should have, you’re the author. But like, yeah, I didn’t know.
Joanna: He just doesn’t get it. It doesn’t understand. Well, it’s funny because I also have this thing, um, and this is Carl Jung as well: Jungian psychology. Jung calls it synchronicity and these kind of things that are coincidences, but almost, I don’t want to say spiritual coincidences or some kind of unconscious coincidence. And this comes up in my research, every single book. So I based my books very much, well my Arcane books on deep research. So Spear of Destiny. And there’s always a moment because I’m following the truth like his history, they’re not historical books but I base it on history, and I’m like, I really need a connection between this particular place in Germany and Washington DC in the USA that fits into the way I want the book to go that I think the book should go. And there was nothing, nothing, nothing, nothing. And then this happened this week and when it happens, it’s like, Oh, this is so much fun. That is something that happened. And I was like, Oh, that is so cool. You couldn’t make it up. And there it is. It’s actually true. And then in my author’s note, which I love doing as part of these books in particular, I always write down all my research and my readers are always like, Oh my goodness, I just love looking all this up on checking all your research on Wikipedia. Like, is that really true? And then I turn at the last minute, I’m turning it into slightly supernatural fiction, you know. So it’s so much fun. But yeah, Jung calls that synchronicity, that moment of, Oh my goodness, I was writing that and it’s actually correct.
Jo: I honestly, I live for those moments, like, because I never see them coming and then—
Joanna: You can’t force them.
Jo: No, no. You really can’t. But that’s the fun thing with it. Like I, yeah. I just love that. I love it.
Joanna: Yeah. And I guess we should say people listening, if you are a plotter and you do outlining and all that kind of thing, that’s great too. We are not saying you shouldn’t do that. Like, the point is you find your own process and enjoy the process. And I know people who plot will say they have those moments when they’re plotting. It’s just a different point in the process. No one way is better than another. But it is good to talk about this because there’s a lot of writing books that, most writing books will kind of force you down the plotting route. So it’s really good to acknowledge that there are other ways.
Jo: Yeah. It really is. It’s that permission slip that, you know, you don’t have to be writing every day either, because there’s a lot of people that say, well, that’s what you have to do. And yeah.
So going back to Writing the Shadow, that book in my mind is just one big permission slip. You have been so vulnerable in that book, like you were talking about adding your own stories and that. And that takes so much courage. But because of that, it’s almost like a permission slip for everybody else to also go deep and to not kind of hide their Shadow. And in fact, one thing that I really love, and I’ve got it, ‘cause I’ve got your journal for it as well, which I haven’t used because it’s too pretty… I kind of, that’s my problem. It’s just sitting there looking pretty and yeah. But you’ve got like on page two, you’ve even written: “Trigger Warning: This book may trigger you. I hope it does.” And I love it!
Joanna: Yeah, well, it’s funny because triggers are a way that you can see the Shadow. Because it’s not something that you can just go, Oh, look, there’s my Shadow. You know? It’s kind of behind you in the sun or whatever. You have to catch it out the corner of your eye. And I find “Trigger” triggering these days, of course, there’s a lot of political things around and I kind of did it to make people react to it, but equally, it’s sort of an intense reaction to things that other people might shrug off. So, yeah, I mean, things where you react and other people go, why are you so angry? Or why are you judging that so much? Or how did you even notice that, like I didn’t even notice that or what do you judge or criticize in other people? Wherever people react in a more extreme way and you know, we see this in society, um, social media and all of this stuff, is like, okay. So when you see, it’s easier to see in other people, obviously, but it’s like, okay, why, why did we think that person reacted in that way? Why did they get so angry about something? And then also then try and look at ourselves and be like, okay, let’s just take a step. Why am I reacting like this?
So, I talk in, I have a lot of, obviously, as you say, a lot of stuff in the book, but I hate the thought of being called lazy is such a triggering thing for me. And I will see people just lying around in the summer, enjoying the sun, playing a game. And I’m like, they’re so lazy. And I’m like, what am I doing? They’re just having a nice time. And it’s because, you know, I really value working. I don’t really know what I am without working and that’s, in one way it’s great, in another way it’s very unhealthy. So I struggle to rest, and so I need to acknowledge that otherwise I just collapse and I, you know, come close to burnout and all that kind of thing.
But yes, so the triggering is the sort of, uh… and also pay attention to your curiosity. So there’s a whole, like the second section has things like money, family, religion, society, all these things. And people have said to me that different chapters interested them more than others. So what about you? Which chapters sort of spoke to you the most?
Jo: Oh, gosh. Well, there was so many. So I was listening to it as an audio book. I’ve got all versions of your lovely book. So I was listening to it as an audio book and I keep finding myself welling up because there were so many of your own stories that I totally could relate to. That lazy thing. And for me is also being called boring. And you made a comment about that kind of like walking down the street and seeing other women and then finding yourself judging them and then comparing yourself and then, you know, like that. So that was really like—
Joanna: That was really hard to put in, you know, it’s so funny, isn’t it? And for people listening, that is a body image thing where you look at other women and you, think, Oh, I’m skinnier than that person. But most of the time it’s like, I’m fatter than that person. And it’s like, seriously, what is wrong with us that we can’t even walk down the blimmin’ street? And some people obviously get that on social media and everything and the judgment we have as women to look a certain way and yeah. And it’s hard to write that because it’s kind of embarrassing and petty and small and yet it happens every day. Right? It’s real.
Jo: Yeah. It is so real. And even when I’m doing that, like I’ve still got that inner dialogue.
Joanna: Exactly.
Jo: Like you’re saying, like, what is wrong with me? Why am I being so judgy? But it’s real. And then again, because you talked about perimenopause, and I’m like, yeah, I’m feeling all that. And you know, in that self-judgment and that of the getting older. The other thing that’s, you know, in my periphery at the moment and my awareness, and there was just so much in that book that I was like, Ooh, ouch, ouch. You’re getting me. You’re calling me on all my things.
Joanna: Well, and I’m glad to do that because I think when someone else helps you discover something, then we can engage with it. And I mean, even like when you’re more aware of your, let’s say your body image judgments, then you can say, okay, I acknowledge that I have some kind of issue here, but I’m going to deal with it by doing X. And that, I mean, in a way it’s something that will never be fixed. But the aging thing is really interesting because I think both you and I, obviously, because of what you write as well, we’re happy to think about death and the supernatural and all of that. And I’m like, yeah. And then when I hit the kind of menopause, uh, sort of perimenopause, it was like, I’m fine with death, but I am not so okay with aging. Like I found all this sort of ageist attitudes coming out in myself and some again, like, sorry, I didn’t realize I was going to have to get old before I died, you know, kind of thing. And you start hitting up against things that challenge your own thoughts. And this is the other thing about the Shadow work, is it’s never done, you know, there’s always something else.
So, you know, at any point in your life, you’re going to come up against other things. And part of the way of the book is, and as writers, we’re lucky because we can write our Shadow into our work and it will help us to integrate it. And, I guess, help us to learn and grow and become better writers, better people.
And also, I really feel like in this age of AI, you know, I’m very positive about AI, but equally it does mean there’s going to be a lot of generated content. And so to stand out and to connect in this world, you need to be more and more human. You need to, you do need to show your vulnerability. You do need to make people, I mean, there’s, you’ve read the book. There’s no way that book would be generated by an AI. No, it’s just, it’s just impossible. I mean, it could do it with the words, but until a robot actually goes through the things that we go through as humans, you can’t, a robot is not going to write memoir.
Jo: And you have been so vulnerable in that book. Like it really was like, Oh, wow. But that means that we can as well, like as readers, we can go, you know, through that and be okay with maybe some of the things we’ve seen as faults for ourselves.
Joanna: How do you think you’re going to integrate this? Cause you already writing, like you said, gothic suspense, paranormal cozy. How do you think you’re going to bring these things into your work?
Jo: So, part of it is a little bit like self-development. Because it’s making me more aware now of like, Ooh, that’s my shadow, you know? Like, why am I being judgy or why am I, you know, feeling triggered and that? And so it’s bringing that awareness to me again of like, yeah, that’s something that you might want to work on a little bit. But I think again, I keep going back to that it allows, like for me, it feels like it gives me even more permission to go darker, you know, to be a little, put a little more of myself on the page, whether it’s in my characters or through their actions, a little bit more of that. Yeah, it’s hard to explain, but I think it’s that you were so vulnerable in the book that it’s almost, for me, it feels like, okay, well, I can be vulnerable in mine, even, you know, being fiction, but that’s okay. I can pull a little bit more of that rawness and a little bit more of the dark and the ugly and the parts that, you know, I want hidden from the world, out into the open a little bit more. And that’s exciting. That’s a little bit freeing. That’s, yeah. I like that.
Joanna: Oh, good. Well, it’s interesting because you also identified the trigger word being boring. And I think partly that comes, maybe this helps, is being a good girl. I think the good girl, you know, kind of image that we have that we’re told we have to behave certain ways. We have to have certain attitudes. We have to be vanilla. We have to be tepid and boring because that’s what society really wants us to be. And if we are not like that, then we get attacked. We get criticized, we get told, oh, you are a bad girl. Which is, you know, from being young people, is like not acceptable to be like that. And you want please your parents or your society or your school or whatever. And so, I think those of us who have had that and still are, you know, we are both good girls in many ways, but having, allowing that, um, and I use the metaphor of Plato’s chariot, where there’s a charioteer and there’s two horses, a white horse and a dark horse. And in the book I say, you know, let your dark horse run. And so often as good girls, a white horse is the one that takes control and we stay within the lines and we stay on the road and we just go straight and, and that’s boring. And what the dark horse can do is kind of take us off into the woodlands or off along the cliff path and all of this. And of course, if you let your Shadow, your dark horse run too hard, you will head off the cliff. But the idea is to kind of have them both running together. And that will be how we can write our best work and stay psychologically healthy. ‘Cause of course, and I do have self-care in the book. We’re not saying, you know, you just go super, super dark and like, let it all rip. Like, that’s not the message, but it’s kind of in a healthy way, letting these elements out over time.
So I think my book, my first book, this is like my fifth novel, Desecration, that is the book where I started to really let my dark horse run and let aspects of myself into my fiction. And then it was like another decade before Pilgrimage and then Writing the Shadow.
So as you say, it’s a very vulnerable thing to do memoir because it’s like, yeah, that’s actually me as opposed to that’s a character who does that. But I would say, and I’m encouraging people who are listening because many people want to write memoir, it is the hardest thing to write and yet it is probably the most rewarding in terms of having to face a lot of things. And you will know whether you are healed when you do a memoir, because if you’re not, you’re going to know about it and you’re going to need some more therapy.
Is memoir something you might consider?
Jo: I don’t know. I don’t know. But I do use my fiction as that cathartic kind of, like I do find that trauma and that, that I might’ve had in my life finds its way coming out in my fiction, but a different way. Like sometimes through the villain and the villain’s actions, even though it might be completely different experiences expressed in my fiction versus what I might’ve gone through in real life. I still process some of my emotion through that, if that makes sense.
Joanna: It’s very healthy to do that, I think. Yeah. And I think that’s the thing for people listening. Be that weird self in your fiction and just let it out. You can write under a pseudonym if you want to. I mean, I love having Joanna Penn and J. F. Penn. I really feel like it does separate things for me in terms of J. F. Penn is more the dark horse. And what’s interesting is now I’m really moving into letting J. F. Penn be the primary in my author career, you know, and looking at writing other books, non-fiction books under J. F. Penn, as well as Joanna Penn. And so it’s a really interesting way to sort of do that. But we can use the Shadow to give us, I guess, guidance into the things we could explore in our fiction that will touch other people. And that’s what’s so interesting. You look at the success of Colleen Hoover, who I put in the book, you know, as an amazing example of someone, and you read like, I’ve only read one of her books and I read it and I was like, Oh my goodness. She just, she really does bring out a lot of things that people struggle with because she’s had a very hard life and people absolutely adore her for it. And they adore her books. And I think that’s the lesson too, is when you’re more vulnerable, like you’ve said, you know, being vulnerable on the page.
Well, you can see the difference between a book like Career Change and then a book like Writing the Shadow, I’ve learned how to become more vulnerable on the page. And it doesn’t mean I’m not scared. I’m scared of judgment. I’m scared of bad reviews. I haven’t even looked at the reviews for this book. I just haven’t. It just scares me. You know? And so I think that’s what we, it is scary to put yourself out there, but it is worth it both for your development, but also for other people and to touch other people. And I’m, you know, it’s amazing that you read this book and you feel touched and you’re on the opposite side of the planet and we don’t know each other. And like writing books is some kind of magic, right?
Jo: It really is. And that’s what I’ve been thinking is that when you are vulnerable on the page, when you do share, whether it’s through fiction or memoir, that part of you, that Shadow Self, that part that’s not all pretty and dressed up that you often show the rest of the world, then it helps the reader feel less alone because none of us are perfect. We’ve all got that little bit of a darker side to us. And so I think that’s where the interest is, why people enjoy reading real authentic writing like this is because it hits them with, Oh, okay. This person feels similar to me, thinks similar to me. I’m not alone. And, you know, and that kind of crazy or that darkness or that—
Joanna: Yeah. Yeah. And you’re not alone. And although the reality is most of us write alone.
Jo: Yeah.
Joanna: And so you can feel alone. And I remember thinking early on, especially with the traditional publishing industry, when you have to kind of go begging, like pick me, pick me and you get rejection. Rejection is part of being an author anyway. If you want a traditional publishing deal, you get rejected by agents and publishers. If you self-publish, you get rejected by readers. It’s like nobody, but no one will buy your book and then people do buy your book and then they leave you a bad review or whatever. So you hit rejection at some point from somebody. But you have to get your words out there for a start. And sometimes that can be very hard when you’re sitting there alone with the blank page. But as you say, reading and we all read, right? We read voraciously. And that reading is what helps us realize what it can be.
So yeah, I’m so glad you were encouraged. And for people listening, maybe just try pushing a little bit. I mean, you don’t have to go from zero to a hundred in terms of how much you write. Right? Maybe just think about something that’s triggered you or something you haven’t told people, a secret shame, I think is a really big thing. Feeling, if you feel ashamed about something, guilty about something, if you feel, um, or, you know, sad, some of these more negative emotions hide what we might need to look at around the Shadow, and then see if you can bring that into your writing in some way. And it doesn’t need to be, as they say, on the nose. It doesn’t need to be exactly that. As you said, you’re kind of sublimating your feelings into fictional situations. So it is again hidden but you’re still able to get it out there. And I think just for people listening, just go step by step, just do a little bit and see how it feels. And it will take time, but I think it’s really, it’s really worth doing this kind of exploration.
Jo: Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. So what is next for you then? Because I know you’ve talked about this is possibly for the meantime at least, your last nonfiction for a while. So what is next for you?
Joanna: Well, it’s my last nonfiction for authors, but as Joanna Penn. So as J.F. Penn, so my next novel is Spear of Destiny, which is a modern-day thriller but it’s inspired by the actual Spear of Destiny. I was in Vienna a few weeks ago looking at it and that’ll be interesting. The Kickstarter is at https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/thecreativepenn/spear-of-destiny-an-action-adventure-thriller-novel. And the covers there, the cover is very cool. I’m very proud of the cover. So yeah, have a look at that. But that’s my next thriller. So that’s what I’m working on.
But then my next project will be one on Gothic cathedrals. And this is very Shadow. So this is a nonfiction, um, it’s going to be part photo book. So I’ve been taking photos of Gothic cathedrals for a very long time. So it’s going to be, um, there’ll be several editions. The main edition will be this beautiful photo book, because I want to make more beautiful books. That’s kind of part of my thing now. But also it will have essays and memoir pieces on Gothic as a sensibility, which is something you might be interested in. So it will be this combination of both. But I’m thinking about it as again, this is very Shadow because something I just haven’t shared and something I haven’t really talked about much, although every, pretty much every single one of my Arcane thrillers has a Gothic cathedral in it. And I love taking photos of them and all of this kind of thing. And now I’m like, do you know what? I don’t even know what the market is for this book, but I’m going to write this and then I’m going to put it out there. And I know people also love Gothic cathedrals like I do. And so there’ll be essays around the sacred, and I’m not a Christian, but I feel closer to whatever some people might call God in some places like Gothic cathedrals. And so I’m just fascinated by, and again, it’s longer term thinking. Cathedral thinking is people spent multiple generations building something that is of great beauty. And we just don’t do that anymore. So yeah, that’s the next couple of books anyway.
Jo: Yay. Well, I’m really excited for that one because I’ve seen some of your photography and that on social media when you occasionally post there or in your newsletters and that, and yeah, I just love it. And I know you’ve taken photos, I think, of graveyards and things and you appreciate that and I appreciate that. So yeah, I’m pretty excited for that book.
Joanna: Oh, thank you.
Jo: So how else can people like, where can they find you? How can they connect with you? Where can they get Writing the Shadow?
Joanna: Hmm. So since this is a podcast, I have a podcast, which is The Creative Penn, P E N N. And my website for writers is https://www.thecreativepenn.com/. And you can find links to Writing the Shadow there in lots of different formats. And then my fiction https://jfpenn.com/ and I guess my main social media is probably Instagram @jfpennauthor.
Jo: Wonderful. Well, thank you so much Joanna for coming on. It has been such a blast chatting with you and yeah, so great to finally connect with you. This has been awesome.
Joanna: Oh, thanks for having me, Jo.
Jo: Takeaways from today’s show:
1. Although this has been said many times before, the law of attraction is nothing without action.
2. Using affirmations for your future self, such as saying, “I am an author”, before you’ve even written your first book, helps create the cognitive dissonance that will propel you forward to making that your reality.
3. The more we write, the better writer we become. Remember that practice will improve your practice.
4. Think long term about your author career. Consider it lifestyle design and remember to plan it around what it is that you most enjoy about writing.
5. Nonfiction cannot be all about facts. It will resonate with your audience better when you authentically share your stories.
6. No one way of writing a book, plotting or discovering as you go, is better than the other. Do what’s best for you.
7. Pay attention to what is triggering for you. Sometimes, these can indicate aspects of your Shadow Self.
8. Shadow work is never done, so be kind to yourself. Be curious, and don’t be afraid to challenge your thoughts.
9. Don’t be scared of putting your work out there because of potential rejection. As Joanna explains, rejection is a part of the author life. Know that and do it anyway.
So there we have it, my friends. I think you will have noticed that I was buzzing throughout that entire episode. Like I’ve said before, Joanna really is the real deal and I had so much fun chatting with her. If you haven’t already, you absolutely must check out her Creative Penn podcast. It has a wealth of info on the craft and business of writing. It’s super motivating. And it was such a huge inspiration for me wanting to start my own podcast here.
I’m also going to highly recommend that you pick up your own copy of Writing the Shadow. It’s available in all formats and I should know because I’m that person who owns all forms of them. And there’s a workbook too that can support you as you follow Joanna’s guidance and do the work to enrich not only your writing, but also your life.
If you enjoyed this episode, please consider supporting the show. It really does mean a lot to me. And you can support the show by leaving a review, tagging me on socials, sharing with a friend, or even for just a few dollars, you can buy me a coffee at buymeacoffee.com/jobuer. If you have a topic you want talked about on the show, you can always send me an email at jo@jobuer.com, or you can leave me a short voice message at https://www.speakpipe.com/alchemyforauthors.
On one last note, I can say from my episode downloads that the most recent episode of Alchemy for Authors: Money Magic and Mindset with Lisa Savino, really resonated for a lot of you. So if you haven’t already, please make sure that you go check out her Money Magic Membership, and you can get your first month free when you use my link, which will be in the show notes, and the coupon code Jo. J O. At the checkout. So the membership is month to month. So I suggest that you just go check it out, go through some of the learning modules, listen to some of the previously recorded calls, enjoy some of the hypnosis and meditations, and then choose whether you want to continue or not before your free month expires. Personally, I’m a member, I absolutely love it. It works for me, but check it out for yourself and let me know what you think.
Okay, my lovelies, a big thank you again for all of your support and understanding and for following me on my author and podcasting journey. I am wishing you a wonderful, magical writing week ahead, my friends. Bye for now.
author mindset, indie author, memoir, Shadow Self, Shadow Work, the creative penn, writing a book